Grid-Enhancing Technologies with Alexina Jackson, AES | EP218

In this episode of the Clean Power Hour, host Tim Montague sits down with Alexina Jackson, Vice President of Strategic Development at AES, to discuss the future of the electrical grid and the implementation of grid-enhancing technologies (GETs).

Alexina shares her insights on the transformation of the grid from an analog system to a more digital, dynamic, and distributed network. She explains how this evolution is crucial for integrating renewable energy sources, improving grid reliability, and maintaining affordability. The conversation delves into various GETs, including dynamic line rating, topology optimization, advanced power flow control, and storage as transmission.

The discussion highlights the importance of visualizing and optimizing the grid's capacity, making better use of existing infrastructure rather than solely relying on new construction. Alexina emphasizes the need for regulatory support, education, and deployment of these technologies to overcome barriers and accelerate the clean energy transition.

The episode also touches on AES's commitment to decarbonization and the challenges of transitioning to a renewable energy system. Listeners will gain valuable insights into the complexities of grid modernization and the innovative solutions being developed to address them.

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Alexina Jackson
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Transcript

Alexina Jackson: 0:39

Absolutely, I mean, like I said, we're taking a systems view. So AES is a company that was actually founded on on values and this idea of proving that the clean energy, or sorry, the Clean Air Act could actually create an energy company that would be economically viable. So I don't see a conflict between serving our shareholders as a public company, serving our customers as a provider of energy or as a utility, and actually doing good for the world and changing the system.

intro: 1:14

Are you speeding the energy transition? Here at the Clean Power Hour, our hosts, Tim Montague and John Weaver bring you the best in solar batteries and clean technologies every week, want to go deeper into decarbonisation? We do too. We're here to help you understand command the commercial, residential and utility, solar, wind and storage industries. So let's get to it. Together, we can speed the energy transition.

Tim Montague: 1:42

Today on the Clean Power Hour, the grid of the future, I'm Tim Montague, your host, check out all of our content at clean power hour.com, give us a rating and review on Apple and Spotify and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Today, my guest is Alexina Jackson. She's the Vice President of Strategic Development, and a grid expert. And we are going to geek out on what she and her team are up to at AES, a global utility, large largely present here in the Midwest and mid Atlantic in the east coast of the United States, but operating in 14 countries around the world. Welcome to the show. alesina Thank you, Tim Great to be here. Really excited to bring your, your work to my listeners, you know, the grid is something that we often take for granted. But as clean energy professionals, you know, my my listeners are wrestling with the challenges of getting their projects interconnected. And finding places on the grid where there's enough capacity for wind, solar and batteries. And and these mundanities of the energy transition are a real challenge for our industry. So I'm excited to learn about your work and how what you refer to as grid enhancing technologies are going to really unlock a lot of capacity using our existing infrastructure. In many regards. It's a both and right, we need to upgrade the infrastructure and augment it in some important ways. But we don't necessarily need to rebuild it from the ground up. So before we get into that, Alexina, please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you came to be in the position you're in today.

Alexina Jackson: 3:30

Yes, thanks, Tim. Yeah, so my name is Alexina Jackson. I'm working within a SS innovation business. So a yes has a renewables development business. It has a utilities business. And then it has an innovation business, which is where my team and I sit. And I came to AES and to doing this work through sort of an extended journey first starting out in in sustainable development as a strategy consultant. Thinking about how our telephony system and I mentioned this because I think it's quite relevant to thinking about how we're approaching solutions on the grid as well. So thinking about how the telephony system might move from an analog environment into a digital first environment. So think about all those changes from you know, if you look at it own movie, the wires being plugged in and having a dedicated communication line and telephony, to this modern, Uber driven convenience, economy that is fueled by the smartphone in your hands. So that's where I started my work. I then took a foray into the law because I felt that the big gap in my knowledge was the regulatory and legal space and how that impacts our markets and how we reward and punish activities within society, the sticks and carrots you might consider them, and then came back to a yes as an attorney thinking through a number of our interactions with government, but also where we might be developing really exciting new technologies and how we would create relationships to get those successfully launched into market. More recently have been involved in our innovation business where I sit today, thinking both about how we better serve our customers, how we provide governance and structure to the decisions we make about innovation. And most recently, standing up this team that is focused laser focused on the electrical grid and how it might evolve how we solve challenges today, and how we move to a more digital dynamic and distributed grid. And Tim, I really like how you set up this segment with this idea that the grid has been perhaps not receiving the due attention it needs, it is not the shiny object. Historically, within the last few years, people have thought a lot about the exciting assets that get connected to the grid, or the new exciting ways in which, and consumers are consuming or even generating their own power. Those have been the shiny objects of the last several years, and my team. And I feel very strongly that to make those shiny objects realize their full objectives, we really need to pay attention to the system that is connecting the generation the consumption, ie how we deliver energy across the system.

Tim Montague: 6:21

I'm curious if you know, when we talk about the grid, we often refer to it as a one of the most complicated machines that humanity has ever designed and build, but be something that has largely been the same for the last 100 years. And now things are different. Is that a fair assessment?

Alexina Jackson: 6:42

I think that's right. I mean, it is an amazing machine, right? That ability to flip a switch, and there you go, you have this amazing source of power of fuel that allows so much of the rest of society, we really take it for granted. And the fact that it continues to work so well. I also agree that it it has largely remained the same. Certainly there have been improvements, a lot of incremental improvements to the assets that go on to the grid, but we're largely doing like for like replacements sort of under that theory, if it's not broken, don't fix it. I've also anecdotally heard from many people that we do have a lot of assets that are nearing their end of life in the system. So where we are replacing, there are still some assets have been that have been in place for decades. So we do have a really fantastic opportunity to think as we're upgrading and replacing these assets that are going to need replacement. are we continuing that like for like replacement? Or Are we recognizing that we're stepping into a more modern, more digitally powered society, that our grid is already dynamic in nature, we're just not visualizing that and making use of that capability. And so we have this great moment to to really take a step change in the direction of a more modern grid.

Tim Montague: 8:01

You know, one of the massive transformations that that I think is just front and center for energy professionals is the decentralization, right? We're going from a world of centralized power plants, whether they're coal, gas, nuclear, to one of a combination of, yes, there will be large, renewable, wind, solar and battery farms. These are 100 megawatt plus now, gigawatt plus scale your generators, and then the advent of rooftop solar at the opposite end, right. at the, at the point of use. And, you know, given our sophisticated computer technology, and truly, you know, like a solar inverter is a computer. And, and so it just kind of makes sense to me that there's no reason we can't transcend, you know, include and transcend, I guess, is the expression that I really like, include the best of the past and, and transcend that and, and move forward in a new way, so to speak, because obviously rooftop solar, and and you know, behind the meter batteries are a huge potential. And there's no reason why we shouldn't embrace that. And meanwhile, we're going to be consuming way, way, way more, you know, three or four times more electricity as we build data centers, as we electrify transportation and industry and HVAC, etc. So, paint a picture for our listeners, though, Alexina, what is the purview of your work? What are the problems that you're trying to solve? And then we'll take a little deeper dive into some of those.

Alexina Jackson: 9:54

Sounds great. So if you don't mind me, I'll just sort of grab a little bit of what you were describing there to talk about the most visionary aspect of our work, right? Which is that envisioning the future grids so that we build very practical stepping stones with the current changes that might benefit the system. So as we think about that future visionary view of the grid, a number of the things you mentioned in terms of the very digital nice nature of the assets that we're putting on there, right. So I think I said earlier, digital dynamic distributed, right, so if you take those, those words, the digital aspect, we're adding more inverter based resources. We're adding more in an Internet of Things at The end point of consumption. So, as we think about just the changing digital nature of the grid, you add on some sensors, which is part of our very practical near term objectives on the team, right adding greater awareness of the grid in place. So you add in those sensors, and you have an extremely digital grid. So there is a sense of urgency on the team to have us recognize as a system, that as we are building out the grid, we are making an inherently digital first grid. And that means we need to start thinking about planning, operating and regulating in new ways that the analog system of of a thermal grid with, you know, certainly not I don't mean to imply dumb assets, but not smart assets in place is our method of the past. And we need to start thinking about how we're actually inherently capable of controlling the grid differently. In light of it being digital, then you were mentioning the distributed aspect, again, a big change in the way the grid is generating and consuming energy. So there are a lot of opportunities that emerge as you think about the fact that generation and supply are now appearing throughout the grid, not just in the local area, as you were describing, but even out by the utility scale assets when we put batteries in place. They are also consumers of energy and to think about that strategic consumption of energy by a battery is also quite useful. So as we think about the distributed nature of the grid, we have opportunities to be much more planned and are thinking about where it's beneficial to place a battery, for example, whether that is at the utility scale side of things, or much closer to load. That strategic placement of batteries can help us achieve our decarbonisation objectives much more quickly, as well as ensuring that we're consuming the best price energy on the grid. reducing congestion in the grid is beneficial both from the perspective of accelerating our decarbonisation narrative as it is beneficial to reliability and low price energy, which has been one of those touchstones in the grid for a very long time. And then, you know, we talked about, you know, dynamic, right, which is just an inherent characteristic of the grid, but we've just not been paying attention to it. So we've always produced energy dynamically, we've consumed energy dynamically, and we've transported energy dynamically. By becoming aware and making that dynamic nature visible, we can actually start optimizing energy flows time of use location of us, and really treating the grid in a new way. So the team is thinking about this evolution, which has some components that are actually quite the same, we're just becoming more aware of them, and some that are driven by consumer desire, right. So we're meeting customer needs. And the last is really about efficient use of the system, you know, making sure that we are being more deliberate and proactive and planning instead of reactive, which has tended to be the way that we've planned and run the grid today. So that's a long description of that visionary aspect. Tim, I'll take a pause there, and cue from you where to go next.

Tim Montague: 14:10

I love it. And that's a lot to unpack. But you said something in the pre show that really makes me think and that is that you refer to the grid as the network. And truly, electrons are our energy that you can do work with, but they're also information. And, and, and now there's kind of a hybridization occurring. And, you know, everything that we use, both on the on the load side, and on the generation side can become smarter and more dynamic. And, and, you know, I honestly think that some of our problems that we experience in the clean energy transition, for example, utilities, claims sometimes claim that, well, we just can't integrate that much solar, this fast, so to speak, right? This is going to cause a problem like the duck curve, for example that we have in California. And I go, Yeah, okay. I see the graph, that I understand that that's complicated to moderate and figure out how to balance the grid when you know that sunny afternoon is happening and then the sun is going down. But as You said like the grid has always been dynamic, you've always had to turn up and down the generator, whether it was a coal plant, or a natural gas plant or peaker plant. And, and now we're just getting better granular, sophisticated control of these assets. And so it's actually, seemingly to me a really wonderful opportunity to just, let's go, let's turn it on, let's truly make it fully dynamic. And more sophisticated. Is that a good assessment?

Alexina Jackson: 16:14

I love that you're already on board with the digital transition for sure. You know, welcome to the team. And, you know, I think that change is hard, right. And there are a lot of complementary systems in place that are tied back to the status quo system. So I don't want to understate when we think about a systems view, because it's really is a cascading set of impacts, that changes hard, we've got a lot of regulation in place that is tied to the old system, right. So we've got a lot of incentives that encourage big chunky investments by utilities that, you know, are like to like replacements. And you know, it's hard to break that cycle and say, I'm gonna go out and do something in a new way, and figure out how new technologies impact my assets in place and allow me to operate the system differently. Also, it's expensive. The transformation itself, if we want to put sensors everywhere and truly operate in this dynamic way to do that overnight, would be quite expensive. So I think one of the one of the topics that we want to bring out in in the transition of the grid is that we need support in that change management process, we need to be smart about the incremental changes in investment, and how we operate the grid, we need to make the system visible so that we have the right data to inform those changes. And let me make this concrete. As you put dynamic line rating on to the grid, for example, you're able to see the true headroom of a line, its ability to carry energy across the conductor. But you're also able to have situational awareness about how that line is operating. And perhaps even where it would benefit from incremental investment. So that you can unlock additional capacity, that constraint on the line may be as a result of an asset that's on the line, you know, maybe an old switch or an old, I guess, even the conductor itself could be degrading over time. And by being aware of the quality or the health of that line, and the corresponding related assets, the utility has an opportunity to make that strategic and targeted investment, and then spend additional money on bringing other parts of the grid up to this digital speed. And so you know, So Tim, I think I don't want to simplify the transformational journey that we have in front of us. But I agree with you that the opportunity there is enormous and very worthwhile doing. And so I commend two utilities, the idea of becoming quite smart about the assets in place, and then being able to make more proactive and leaning in sort of decisions about how they move the grid from the analog system that it's in today into that digital future.

Tim Montague: 19:26

I think it's so unfortunate that we have somehow created this juxtaposition in society where the clean energy transition is somehow at loggerheads with the great operators. And I'm like, Look, we're all on the same team here. We want a better, safer, healthier future for humanity. There's nobody on earth, honestly, when you sit down over a coffee table and talk about this, who doesn't want those things, it's so logical, right? It truly is like that is integral to our humanity. And, and yet, we have created a system that is full of these barriers and friction. Which I think that honestly we do need to figure out how to transcend that. I want a I want a very reliable, safe, resilient grid. And, and I understand enough about the physics of renewable energy in batteries that to know that it truly is possible. You know, one Example is community scale micro grids. And, you know, today we don't have community scale resiliency in so many communities around the US and you see things like, you know, the storm URI in Texas A few years ago, that was a serious disaster, but very nearly a much worse disaster. Right? And, and that just gives me significant pause, right, that our grid is somehow fragile at its core, in ways that are really not good for society. We're skating on thin ice, it seems like. So if we could all lean in together and accelerate the transformation, that would be a good thing. And I'm not expecting any any silver bullets from you on this on this particular, you know, bigger problem, but I welcome your comments. And then let's talk about some of these great enhancing technologies. Because I think there are some things that that my listeners would be would be excited and interested to know about that they're out there, there are solutions to the problem, per se.

Alexina Jackson: 21:54

Absolutely. So a few quick points, and then let's get to the guests. So one is, you know, I agree with you, we're very excited to talk about system level change, as my team is really privileged to think not just about individual project solutions, but actually system level solutions. And that really requires all of us working together to make that transformation. You mentioned, you know, renewables, decarbonisation being a very motivating factor for making that system level change. I think, you know, regardless of one's particular desires, or politics or source of income, you know, the objectives are similar in that if we do make the successful transformation to our energy system, what we're doing as we're enable enabling the safe, reliable, affordable themes that had been part of our energy system, we're just continuing to enable those, right safety, safety. You know, knowing what's happening on the grid is a key component of safety, but so is clean air. Reliable. Once you know what your grid is capable of doing and performing, you're able to do that better. And affordable, we're not going to get the amount of energy that we need for a modern society on to the grid, unless we use a lot of these new technologies to ensure that affordability, so by focusing on the transformation of the grid into this digital grid, by attaching additional clean power, I think we're actually doubling down on this concept that has been the touchstone for our grids since the beginning of safe, reliable and affordable energy. So big, I think it just makes a lot of sense. It helps our economy it helps our health that it protects communities. And so it's a win win win in my mind, and as you were saying, Good enhancing technologies. I'm happy to talk about those because I believe they are While there's no single silver bullet, they are part of a powerful toolbox of technologies that enable us to become smarter about the grid, control it more effectively. Planet more clearly and ultimately, therefore deliver the energy that our customers need in a way that maintains the affordability of our grid.

Tim Montague: 24:21

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Alexina Jackson: 25:25

absolutely. I mean, like I said, we're taking a systems view. So AES is a company that was actually founded on on values and this idea of proving that the clean energy, or sorry, the Clean Air Act could actually create an energy company that would be economically viable. So I don't see a conflict between serving our shareholders as a public company, serving our customers as a provider of energy or as a utility, and actually doing good for the world and changing the system. We believe that by changing the system, all boats will rise and will benefit from that. So let's make that very concrete. As you think about interconnection, as more and more interconnection of energy is studied as a cluster, you need to have the cluster run better, you need to have that study process run better, so that our individual projects will also succeed. So it's hard to separate when you're talking about a big machine, like the grid, the success of the system from this success of an individual company. So we absolutely believe that what we're doing is good both for the system, our customers and our company. Cool.

Tim Montague: 26:44

So let's talk about gets grid enhancing technology. It's it's a it's a catchy acronym, I like it a lot. And but you quickly get into some, some technologies that I don't think are common parlance for solar, wind and battery professionals. We're talking about topology, optimization, advanced power flow control, dynamic line rating, and storage as transmission. So break some of those down for us and and if you would give us specific examples as possible. Sure.

Alexina Jackson: 27:23

So starting with dynamic line rating. So line rating, is a way of effectively determining how much energy can flow through one of the conductors, the lines, that is transmitting energy from where it's produced to where it's consumed. Line ratings came into place in around the 1930s, effectively by taking some conservative assumptions about the effect of ambient conditions on the conductor and its ability to transmit energy. And the goal there was to ensure reliability, let's make sure that we don't put too much energy across the line. If we do that can lead to early degradation of the asset, but also potentially safety risks. As the line sags, it could come into contact with other features, let's say like trees in the area, and create some safety risks. So line ratings were born out of a desire for ensuring the continued operation of this big machine that we were talking about, and ensuring that it does so safely. So dynamic line ratings add on a dynamic awareness of the actual carrying capacity. So instead of using static assumptions, we're actually able to visualize the line and understand how these variety of ambient conditions impact the carrying capacity of the conductor. So as you put dynamic line ratings in place, you have more detailed high higher fidelity visibility into the compare the carrying capacity of the line, and then are able to make decisions about how much energy you actually want to send. In some instances, dynamic line ratings are above the static line rating. In fact, in many instances they are, but in some instances, they're actually below. So there is both the great opportunity to make fuller use of the lines that we have in place, but also an important opportunity to ensure that we're operating the lines we have reliably. And if those numbers are below static ratings, arguably safely. And

Tim Montague: 29:31

so, to go from where we are today to a world of Dinah dynamic line rating, do the conductors have to be replaced and upgraded,

Alexina Jackson: 29:41

that conductors do not have to be replaced and upgraded. There are different dynamic line rating technologies. And there is also a completely software solution, which is ambient adjusted ratings, where you would just take data streams around ambient conditions and apply those to a revised line rating calculation. But we think dynamic light rating is so valuable because it includes the wind flow and the direction of the wind flow against the conductor, which has been shown to actually provide the greatest amount of additional headroom because of the cooling impact on the conductor. And so we commend dynamic line rating where it makes a good investment decision because of its integration of the wind component. So with dynamic line rating, you're putting a sensor in place some of those are on the conductor itself. and some of them are mounted to structures. That's this strategy that AES has taken is that structure mounted dynamic line rating. And that doesn't require the change of the conductor, it is just getting eyes on the line. So dynamic line rating can be considered a visualization technique.

Tim Montague: 30:56

Got it? So let's talk about some of these other technologies. And I guess, if you could, you know, when you think about tripling the grid, how much of of that can be achieved by integrating gets into the grid? So

Alexina Jackson: 31:18

yeah, when I think about the tripling the grid, right, there is the adding new generation assets component enabled by additional transmission capacity. And I use those words incredibly, intentionally, therefore, I send them slowly, right, it's not new transmission lines, per se, it's transmission capacity, we might achieve some of that capacity through new lines. But these grid enhancing technologies are another way of achieving that capacity, they can allow us to also, just, as we were just talking about with dynamic line rating, be aware of the capacity that's already there. So that's no new added capacity, it's just better use of the system that's already in place. So absolutely gets I think have a huge role in seeing the capacity we already have. So we can use it also time of use. So Tim, jumping to another one of the GATT storage is transmission. That is a control technology among these grid enhancing technologies. And what I mean by that is, once we visualize it, for example, imagine that we have dynamic line rating in place. And we can see the dynamic nature of the headroom on that conductor, you can then play storage at either end of that line. And imagine you're generating some renewable resource, and right now your line is constrained, you can't send it. But instead of just curtailing that resource or casting off that energy, you can charge the battery close to that generation source, and fill that battery up with inexpensive renewable energy. And then as the dynamic line rating tells you, Oh, now you have additional headroom, it's become Windy, let's say, you can now send that energy through the line to maybe another storage device closer to where the energy is going to be consumed. And even if the the the load or the area of consumption doesn't need to take up all that energy at once you have the battery there as a warehouse for those electrons, those clean, inexpensive electrons, and you can warehouse them there so that when the line might be constrained again, or the supply source is not producing the center of consumption can now consume that energy. So these gets storage is transmission, as the example can also provide a time of use solution that allows us to thereby consume less expensive energy that is also renewable and make better use of the generation assets, not just the assets that are transmitting energy.

Tim Montague: 33:58

Indeed, yeah, I mean, it, it makes perfect sense to me that having a bunch of big batteries big and small, is going to be a wonderful thing for the grid. Right? They're just great shock absorbers. And I think we underestimate the value of storage. I don't doubt that it's going to be hard to make enough batteries fast enough. But that's that's a different problem to solve. What about some of these other things that the these these things are a little geeky, granted, topology optimization, advanced power flow control? What are those? Sure.

Alexina Jackson: 34:40

So there are another set of controls, they control power flow in two different ways. But we can basically describe them together. So again, imagine you visualized the grid with dynamic line rating. You've then placed storage in strategic places so that we're making the most of our generation assets, as well as the ability to transmit time of use. And then you can also say, Well, I recognize that I have certain lines that tend to be more constrained than others. So with topology optimization and advanced power flow control, you can either switch the lines so the topology of the system, you can change the topology by changing switches is how it's done today. And say, Okay, I'm actually going to change how energy will flow in the system by opening or closing these switches. Or with advanced power flow control, you do something which is called Changing the impedance sort of the resistance on the line so that the electrons through physics will flow into a line that is of lower impedance and therefore, easier to flow across. So think of it like water flowing through more or less constrained pipes. Either by closing the valve or by making it easier to flow energy can be directed to the system to make more use of underutilized lines. And thereby making sure that we're not just always hitting one similar constrained line with all the energy, but actually ensuring that we're distributing the energy through the system in a way that just avoids overloads and makes fuller use.

Tim Montague: 36:24

Now, for our listeners, you have written a white paper about this. And so I will put a link to that the paper is titled smarter use of the dynamic grid, accessing transmission headroom through gets deployment. And it makes it makes perfect sense to me that we want to deploy gets. So what are the barriers to deploying gets in the United States today?

Alexina Jackson: 36:53

Well, they're, they're a little lower as of yesterday, because the Federal Energy Regulatory Regulatory Commission did issue some rules that include the requirement to consider gets in the system. So very excited about the advances we've seen in the regulatory space, whether it's through support from organizations like the DOD, for example, the Department of Energy in, in grants, and also even just thought leadership, for example, their grid lift off report has a lot of great guidance on technologies that can help us make greater use of our electrical grid. So there's been a lot of fantastic guidance at the regulatory level in the Gulf from the government. But still, there's a lot of education that needs to happen. And so you mentioned the white paper, that's one reason we put the white paper out there is that since AES is trying to have this as a system level improvement, we want to share our own insights and our own learnings with the larger system to address that education barrier. We want more people to understand these technologies. And in addition to the white paper, you mentioned, we did issue a case study on our own deployment of dynamic line rating. So that's another example of how we're trying to improve education. That case study is also an example of deployment, we need more deployments in the system, right? Because topology of the grid matters, we can deploy technologies in our own footprint today, yes, and our utilities, but there are other topologies in the system, whether that is a radial system, a mesh system, or even you know the type of customers we have on the grid consuming energy in different ways. So we need other utilities to lean in and put deployments on the grid and share their insights from their deployments. Because that is a beneficial feedback loop on education, then ultimately, those who have worked in you in an innovation know this inherently, there's a difference between deployment and scale. And so we need to start addressing some of those regulatory challenges that I mentioned earlier are the incentives that may be built for a thermal system and not for this new digital system that we're building. So we do need help from regulators to address some of the incentives perhaps create things like performance based regulation that can help align incentives to for example, these these more efficient and quick to deploy technologies like gets, ensure that a utility will receive as beneficial, if not more beneficial rates of return for using these creative solutions that would help us get over the gap between the status quo deployment approaches into a broader and and therefore scale deployment of modern technology. So

Tim Montague: 39:50

what is the performance based regulation to incentivize utilities to incorporate gets or or best what you refer to as best available technology standards?

Alexina Jackson: 40:05

Sure, so best available technology standards, which is, I think, complementary, but slightly different from PRs, or performance based regulations. So performance based regulations can take a variety of forms. One that is interesting to look at in the subject of a bill in Congress is this idea of a savings based incentives. So imagine, for example, that a utility were to study the this sort of status quo upgrade of a line and substation and say Okay, that would cost $10 million as an upgrade, versus study a dynamic line rating deployment and say, okay, that will cost $2 million, or, you know, probably those numbers are even bigger apart. But I'm, I'm making a conservative example here. So let's say there's $8 million in savings between the two solutions, then that $8 million could be shared. And the billing Congress, you know, provides the opportunity up to a quarter of sharing of the savings. So if it's a million, right, then you could have 2 million go to the utility for that savings, and 6 million goes to the ratepayers. So the rate payer pays less, the utility receives sort of a an incentive around having chosen the more affordable technology to achieve the objective the need in the system, and therefore receiving sort of that bumper incentive based on performance on the savings to deploy new modern technologies. So that could be an example of a performance based regulation. In terms of best available technologies, that concept, which is described in more detail in the paper is around if we have known effective, capable technologies for meeting a grid need, we should be encouraging utilities to use those technologies. The idea is inspired by clean air regulations, right? This is not a new concept to utilities of saying if there are good best technologies in the market, then you need to consider their use when upgrading part of the system. So if you said I'm going to put a new line a new substation and I should also need to assess whether there is for example, dynamic line rating that I should add to that line or should I add storage at the end of that line, and you know, not have to do as big a step change in the conductor itself and the supporting towers, but by but be able to manage the power flow needs by adding some storage combined with maintaining a smaller footprint for for the towers and conductors themselves.

Tim Montague: 42:57

As stands out, as setting a goal of decarbonizing its infrastructure 70% by 2030. What is your perspective on that bigger transition that is now taking place? Do you feel like we're on course, and it's possible?

Alexina Jackson: 43:20

Well, as far as certainly we are on course, and it is possible, we recognize that there will be instances where our gas assets, for example, may remain in place for a little time because of a community's either challenge in replacing retiring assets with new energy sources. For example, interconnection makes that a challenge in some cases, right? It's hard to add new energy sources to the grid. And so retiring old sources can can be a challenge. And so we recognize that the, the movement towards a renewable grid and renewable energy system is a transition. So it's not like a light switch, you don't just turn it on and off. You You have to go through a transition period. But even with that caveat in place, we are on track and our commitment to decarbonisation of our portfolio is strong, and our commitment to helping our customers such as the big tech data centers, decarbonize their own footprint is strong. So we're definitely here and this is why my team exists, right is to help break down barriers that are in place today or barriers that may be coming down the line in a few years, so that we can continue focusing on that core objective of the company.

Tim Montague: 44:43

We're gonna have to leave the conversation there. I want to thank you, Alexina Jackson for coming on the show. Please check out all of our content at clean power hour.com Give us a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify. Tell a friend about the show. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I love hearing from my listeners, I'm easy to find on LinkedIn or at clean power hour.com And subscribe to our YouTube channel. With that, I want to let our listeners know how they can find you Alexina. Thank you. Yeah,

Alexina Jackson: 45:13

you can definitely find me on LinkedIn. Personally, I'm very active there and any new reports we're putting out will make their way there otherwise, the information that we covered about those two reports are available through AES website at www.aes.com.

Tim Montague: 45:29

Fantastic and we will link to the white paper in the show notes. Thank you so much. Alexina Jackson, Vice President of Strategic Development and grid expert. Thank you You.

Alexina Jackson: 45:39

Thank you.

Tim Montague: 45:40

Hey, listeners. This is Tim, I want to give a shout out to all of you. I do this for you twice a week. Thank you for being here. Thank you for giving us your time. I really appreciate you and what you're all about. You are part and parcel of the energy transition, whether you're an energy professional today, or an aspiring energy professional. So thank you. I want to let you know that the Clean Power Hour has launched a listener survey. And it would mean so much to me. If you would go to clean power hour.com. Click on the About Us link right there on the main navigation that takes you to the about page, and you'll see a big graphic listener survey, just click on that graphic, and it takes just a couple of minutes. If you fill out the survey, I will send you a lovely baseball cap with our logo on it. The other thing I want our listeners to know is that this podcast is made possible by corporate sponsors. We have chin power systems, the leading three phase string inverter manufacturer in North America. So check out CPS America. But we are very actively looking for additional support to make this show work. And you see here our media kit. With all the sponsor benefits and statistics about the show. You know we're dropping two episodes a week. We have now over 320,000 downloads on YouTube. And we're getting about 45,000 downloads per month. So this is a great way to bring your brand to our listeners and our listeners our decision makers in clean energy. This includes projects executives, engineers, finance, project management, and many other professionals who are making decisions about and developing, designing, installing and making possible clean energy projects. So check out clean power hour.com both our listener survey on the about us and our media kit and become a sponsor today. Thank you so much. Let's go solar and storage